This explains so much! We deceive ourselfes in believing our own myth of a classless society. Perhaps Americans can be snootier than Brits because the markers of class are less obvious so we must try all the harder to exclude.
The only people who believe that America is a classless society are those who have never met the rich and famous. I met several during my airline career. Most were very polite, but all emanated 'poshness.' A few were just...trashy to service people. Most of those were the nouveau riche. Word about VIPs gets around quickly in that industry. There are a few people whose music and movies I won't touch to this day.
I have been fortunate to meet rich and/or famous people who were polite (friendly even!) But, yes, the other kind, I've deffo met too. And yes, nouveau riche especially. My heart goes out to everyone in airline work, especially those trapped with the rude types at 30,000 feet.
That might be one reason, Don! As a young person in Sacramento, I bought the myth of America as a classless society, until I started meeting very rich people. The first was Wallace Albertson, widow of Jack, who positively gleamed. She wasn't posh by birth, but, boy, she emanated posh by the time I encountered her. And then there was the very nice Old Money Massachusetts couple who hosted a reception for a conference I attended. As a Brit, I got the poshness right away. The wife reminded me of Julia Child. I have to add the caveat that my expertise is in 18th century poshness, and much of this post was me riffing on the work of the late Dr. Rozbicki.
I just finished “When London Was Capital of America” by Julie Flavell and it’s very much in tune with what you are saying here. Fascinating. Thank you.
I have also read Paul Fussell’s 1984 book on Class (I don’t know if you’ve read it) on American classes, and what he posits as the ultimate determinant of “higher class” (I know that’s not identical with posh) is freedom. I’m so rich/confident/successful that I can afford to break this norm. I can afford to wear stupid pants or have an idiotic nickname. Obviously that was a snapshot of American class at that time, but I think some elements of that desire to display (or to conspicuously NOT to display) class markers persist in both the US and UK and I’d love to know what you think?
Finally, having grown up in Georgia-adjacent Tennessee, I agree wholeheartedly that Southern society is extremely class obsessed, and believe that that has its roots in the eradication of slavery, which makes it qualitatively different from the UK obsession with class. Maybe?
Julie's book is awesome, and I don't say that just because I know her! Plus. I think I might be mentioned in her endnotes, or maybe I'm making that up. 😀 [UPDATE: I am on p.284, note 79. My only complaint is that I wasn't an independent scholar when I wrote that, but a tenured history professor! I should also make clear that historians agree that free Americans saw themselves as British during this period] I have not read Fussell on class, and hope I'm not misreading your comment, but yes, class markers are everywhere if you know how to read them. That can be tricky in a society in which new wealth is also everywhere, and that's why wealth expressed through conspicuous consumption (stuff) is the most obvious sign. As for the South, class is so tangled with ideas of "race", that's a whole subject by itself!
This explains so much! We deceive ourselfes in believing our own myth of a classless society. Perhaps Americans can be snootier than Brits because the markers of class are less obvious so we must try all the harder to exclude.
The only people who believe that America is a classless society are those who have never met the rich and famous. I met several during my airline career. Most were very polite, but all emanated 'poshness.' A few were just...trashy to service people. Most of those were the nouveau riche. Word about VIPs gets around quickly in that industry. There are a few people whose music and movies I won't touch to this day.
I have been fortunate to meet rich and/or famous people who were polite (friendly even!) But, yes, the other kind, I've deffo met too. And yes, nouveau riche especially. My heart goes out to everyone in airline work, especially those trapped with the rude types at 30,000 feet.
That might be one reason, Don! As a young person in Sacramento, I bought the myth of America as a classless society, until I started meeting very rich people. The first was Wallace Albertson, widow of Jack, who positively gleamed. She wasn't posh by birth, but, boy, she emanated posh by the time I encountered her. And then there was the very nice Old Money Massachusetts couple who hosted a reception for a conference I attended. As a Brit, I got the poshness right away. The wife reminded me of Julia Child. I have to add the caveat that my expertise is in 18th century poshness, and much of this post was me riffing on the work of the late Dr. Rozbicki.
I just finished “When London Was Capital of America” by Julie Flavell and it’s very much in tune with what you are saying here. Fascinating. Thank you.
I have also read Paul Fussell’s 1984 book on Class (I don’t know if you’ve read it) on American classes, and what he posits as the ultimate determinant of “higher class” (I know that’s not identical with posh) is freedom. I’m so rich/confident/successful that I can afford to break this norm. I can afford to wear stupid pants or have an idiotic nickname. Obviously that was a snapshot of American class at that time, but I think some elements of that desire to display (or to conspicuously NOT to display) class markers persist in both the US and UK and I’d love to know what you think?
Finally, having grown up in Georgia-adjacent Tennessee, I agree wholeheartedly that Southern society is extremely class obsessed, and believe that that has its roots in the eradication of slavery, which makes it qualitatively different from the UK obsession with class. Maybe?
Julie's book is awesome, and I don't say that just because I know her! Plus. I think I might be mentioned in her endnotes, or maybe I'm making that up. 😀 [UPDATE: I am on p.284, note 79. My only complaint is that I wasn't an independent scholar when I wrote that, but a tenured history professor! I should also make clear that historians agree that free Americans saw themselves as British during this period] I have not read Fussell on class, and hope I'm not misreading your comment, but yes, class markers are everywhere if you know how to read them. That can be tricky in a society in which new wealth is also everywhere, and that's why wealth expressed through conspicuous consumption (stuff) is the most obvious sign. As for the South, class is so tangled with ideas of "race", that's a whole subject by itself!
Shazam! This is the perfect guide for us bumbling Americans. I KNEW we were being judged!
Not by me! 😂
Daw, that's just one thing that makes you so special. 😉